NO. 14 Page 1
May 23, 2013
WEB SITE http://macedontown.net
The Regular Meeting of the
Town Board of the Town of
Pledge of Allegiance.
Upon Roll Call, the following members of the Board were
Present:
|
Councilperson |
Paul Kenyon |
|
Councilperson |
David Maul |
|
Councilperson |
David McEwen |
|
Councilperson |
Sandy Pagano |
|
Supervisor |
William Hammond |
Also
Present:
|
Engineer |
Scott Allen |
|
Accountant |
Kim Leonard |
|
Police Chief |
John Colella |
|
Town Clerk |
Judy Gravino |
|
|
|
|
Village
Board |
|
|
Village Trustee |
David Sliney |
|
Village Trustee |
David Kelly |
|
Village Trustee |
Beverly Bassage |
|
Village Mayor |
Marie Cramer |
|
Village Deputy Clerk/Treasurer |
Kathy Reilly |
Absent:
|
Village Trustee |
Don Lohse |
A statement was read by the Town Clerk as follows:
On behalf of the Town and Village Boards we thank the residents for attending the joint meeting this evening. The objective of this meeting is to reconcile outstanding differences regarding sewer only. This is an open meeting between the boards and not a public hearing; therefore, no questions or comments will be taken from the public unless agreed upon by both boards.
We will start the meeting with comments from Mayor Cramer and then Supervisor Hammond will follow. We ask that individuals limit themselves to one speaker at a time, with respect and calmly discuss the differences at hand.
Upon completion of the joint meeting the Town Board will take a short break before beginning their regularly scheduled meeting.
Mayor Cramer - Requested the Board touch lightly on fire also and asked why we are here?
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – Define partner and customer
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May 23, 2013
Supervisor Hammond – A partner is one that works together owning a percentage of. Our board believes in the contract drafted in 1989 with the Town having a vested partner, vested interest in. We would like to continue that partnership. A customer has no interest and pays necessary fees for treatment of our material.
Mayor Cramer – Interpretation of what the vested interest is?
Councilman Kenyon – The Town has invested $2.5 million in the expansion of that facility in 1989. The Village at that time would not have been able to do the expansion without the Town because it did not need the capacity. The Town participated in that expansion to that amount of money with the understanding that it would have a property interest in that facility. According to the Comptroller at that time the Town would not have been able to participate in the facility if we did not have a property interest. It’s just like buying something and not having any interest in it. Our position is that we have invested heavily in the facility and have a property interest. As a partner we would have a vested interest in the facility rather than just a partner that has no investment at all.
Mayor Cramer – What was the vested interest? Where else are you getting your facts from other than the Comptroller?
Councilman Kenyon – The 1989 contract.
Supervisor
Councilman Maul – The opinion first came from bond council saying that the only way you can do this is if you acquire undivided interest, which means ownership in the plant. The Comptroller backed that up with his own letter saying that he agreed.
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – That’s where we are in disagreement because I was told by the people that were involved at the time that the Town had come to the Village asking because they didn’t want to build their own facility. They wanted to get some capacity for the growth of their township. In order to get the vested interest and get the bond the bank said you needed to show the vested interest. The vested interest was for capacity.
Councilperson Maul – First of all I don’t know who you spoke to, and I don’t care because we have the documents here showing the bond council opinion showing your village attorney at the time requesting the State Comptroller’s opinion and the Comptroller’s opinion. So what you heard from whomever you heard from is not relevant. Second of all nobody would interpret a vested interest as temporary capacity that would disappear at some point.
Mayor Cramer – It wasn’t temporary capacity. It was to provide the capacity for you to be able to build so you could get the capacity that you would like. And it is relevant because they were the key people that were part of it.
Councilperson Maul - But it doesn’t trump the official actual documents that I have in front of me and you probably have in front of you as well showing the legal history of the agreement. You can’t combat the legal opinions of the comptroller and the bond council with hearsay of something somebody told you
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May 23, 2013
whatever it was they told you. As somebody told me versus the actual documents to me there is no contest.
Councilman Kenyon – It goes back to the question are we a partner or a customer?
Trustee Sliney – What are you after 10% or 90%.
Councilperson Maul – The contract calls for a maximum based on pro ratta share of the sewer units with a maximum of 50% of ownership.
Trustee Sliney – When it was written it was about 20/80. You never came close to 50%.
Trustee Kelly – It’s 30/70 now.
Supervisor
Attorney Gene Welch – I was here because it was a public meeting. I am very hopeful that you folks can come to some agreement and when that agreement is reached I will probably have a hand in putting it to paper so I would like to hear where you are going. Let’s keep the attorneys out of it. Let’s let you folks sort it out.
Councilperson Maul – I don’t know what the number is. I thought it was 50/50. If it is not the number what it is is what I would expect us to get.
Trustee Sliney – The contract says it would keep increasing as the Town grew but would never exceed 50%. Is the Town ignoring the $1.5 million that we put in for lines to get to the sewer plant?
Councilperson Kenyon – We just want what we thought the investment was.
Trustee Sliney – Why back in 1989 did you want to expand this, for the Village or the Town?
Supervisor
Trustee Sliney – Let’s not get into that.
Supervisor
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May 23, 2013
Trustee Sliney - Every time I picked up a piece of paper
from the Town it talked about partnerships. But then we walk away the fire is a
perfect example. We sat in here and we
agreed to this #1 that was worth pursuing. And with a blink of an eye you
signed with
Councilperson Kenyon – We have a right to do that.
Trustee Sliney – You had a right to do that, of course you had a right to do that. But that’s not what a partner does.
Councilperson Kenyon – We had a right to sign with
Trustee Sliney - Why did we all set that night and within a
matter of less than 72 hours you guys passed a contract with
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – Yeah but it’s affecting us too.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – I’ll debate that for one reason the sewer use law. For 20 years you have been going without a sewer use law.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – Let me give you my interpretation when I came on board we talked and I spoke to you and you would have it in place in 6 months. It’s been over a year and seven months. The contract has come and gone. We and you are required by DEC to have a sewer use contract equal to ours. Twenty years have come and gone. In twenty years it has cost our customers money. Our customers paid for an industrial user when the industrial should have been paying for themselves. I find that was lack luster on both boards’ parts. This contract was monitored by a group of three people from the town and the village apparently didn’t happen too well.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – I don’t have a clue. I wanted to get that done to go on with the contract.
Supervisor
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May 23, 2013
Trustee Kelly – I guess with the sewer use law you would have recognized the industrial user.
Supervisor Hammond – David we wouldn’t have recognized them as an industrial user where their levels were high unless we were told they were.
Trustee Kelly – Just from the product they were using would make their levels high. I don’t know what happened between you guys. I don’t know what happened between us. All I know is it did not happen. When I brought it to your attention I brought it to your attention because we needed that to go on with that agreement.
Mayor Cramer – Did you let them know that.
Trustee Kelly – Yes I did. That’s what we spoke about. A year and seven months went by. That’s not what I call a partnership when we are out there floundering and we have DEC on us.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – Why did it ever get to litigation?
Councilperson Kenyon – We couldn’t get an answer on the contract.
Councilperson Maul – The Supervisor and I attended 2 village board meetings where we tried to get this topic engaged. We were told we are busy we’ll get to it eventually. That eventually never came. Our Attorney wrote a letter May, June, July 2012 warning of the approaching end of the contract and asking for engagement from the Mayor and her board to handle a smooth transaction to a new contract. And we got no answer. We didn’t hear anything else until very late in the year when it was basically the contract is about to expire and once it does if you have not withdrawn your notice of claim you are not going to get service anymore.
Trustee Kelly – That was not said.
Councilperson Maul - I have it in front of me in the form of a letter from the attorney.
Mayor Cramer – We were actually there and the first two times it was to talk about ambulance because of the mutual aid agreement.
Supervisor
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May 23, 2013
second letter asking you to please meet with us to discuss a sewer treatment facility agreement.
Mayor Cramer – Actually he wrote it in July. I told him I was still acclimating. I was busy. I will get back to him. A month later he wrote again and basically said you are ignoring me. When are we going to meet? June when we met it was just me and you. I said I think we need to talk and learn about each other first. You said there are issues on the sewer that we need to agree. I said I am just learning about this. We made it very nonchalant. Then we left and left on great terms. It was a good conversation. Then you came down to the board to talk about the ambulance. About a month later about September you came back to talk about ambulance and you said you would also like to talk about sewer. I said that our schedule is tight but if you could make it short. You said the contract is coming up we want to discuss it we can’t pay for it without an agreement.
Councilperson Maul – That’s by law.
Mayor Cramer – That’s not law.
Councilperson Maul – That is the law.
Mayor Cramer – Where is it?
Councilperson Maul – A municipality cannot make payments of public funds without a contract. Ask your attorney.
Trustee Kelly – Then we made up a temporary agreement so that we could get on with it which would have been very helpful.
Councilperson Maul - We had to withdraw our claims of ownership in order to accept that temporary contract. We refuse to do that. Since 1970 you spent $1.7 million on that plant. Since 1989 we have spent $2.5 million on that plant. We refuse to accept that that was for capacity only. We demand that we own our fair share of that plant.
Trustee Kelly - Not to be argumental but why did we just put it on a 20 year agreement then?
Councilperson Maul – You weren’t there I wasn’t there.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – I don’t recall anything in there about that
because we are obviously in need of clarifiers and all that. I have been trying to progress as a business
down there to get us back in shape where we need to be into. Unfortunately with the lawsuit filed it
doesn’t make it very healthy. If there
is a true ownership then we would be glad to probably honor that. That’s just
me again speaking. This is Dave Kelly not the Village Board in mass. Nobody is here to cheat anybody out of it. There was a 20 year agreement. When you talk about a vested interest I had
to make a choice when I went down to
Councilperson Kenyon – But you know that going in.
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May 23, 2013
Councilperson McEwen – The Intermunicipal Agreement between the Village and Town states:
Page 4
“B. RESPECTIVE MUNICIPAL
RESPONSIBILITIES
1. Village and Town jointly own treatment
facility as Co-Owners of the
Sewage Treatment Plant”
Mayor Cramer – You have to talk about the first part that talks about vested interest.
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – No
Councilperson Kenyon – Okay then we are done.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – I would want to do what is honorable for the
Supervisor
Gene – I thought you wanted me to keep my mouth shut.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – What does this mean to our taxpayers town in the Village town outside the Village? Okay they started a potential law suit. This has cost us many dollars.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – Us too then. In the Village.
Councilperson McEwen - Absolutely
Trustee Kelly – We are all town taxpayers. That means that not only did you bring this suit against us we are paying to have this suit be brought against us as town taxpayers. And we are having to turn around and having to pay to defend ourselves. If we would have sued you for breach of contract what would have happened there? The same thing. What if we came out winning? The only persons who lose here are the town taxpayers. We are all town taxpayers.
Councilperson Maul – That’s an interesting point. We spent $2.5 million of taxpayer’s money investing in a plant that then your position was we don’t own. We don’t own any portion of it. We have a duty to those people who already paid that $2.5 million to get the property that they paid for. And in order to do that we have to spend more money. That’s an unfortunate fact of life. But if you don’t defend your rights you don’t get your rights and in this case defending your rights costs money.
Mayor Cramer – I actually talked to Mr. Sapienza who was the attorney. He actually disagrees with what you are saying. He said it was the intent of both
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May 23, 2013
boards that it was to provide a vested interest for capacity only to allow you to get that bond. Yes they could have probably done other ways but they decided. That came from him. He was the attorney. Our Village Engineer was part of that also. Everybody knew there was no ownership. It was to provide you capacity. Then at the end of the twenty years when you paid off your bond you still had the capacity of the two-thirds capacity.
Councilperson Maul – I understand that you heard that.
Mayor Cramer - No I didn’t hear that I actually talked to him.
Councilperson Maul – Then you heard it. And he talked back to you and you heard it. Right?
Mayor Cramer – Ok whatever
Councilperson Maul – So that is hearsay to me. We have an agreement right in front of us.
Mayor Cramer – That’s not hearsay that’s a person that drafted that up.
Councilperson Maul – It’s a person that’s not here so its hearsay. You are combating again what you heard from somebody with a document that says very clearly Village and Town jointly owned treatment facility as co-owners of the sewage treatment plant. If the attorney and the board at that time did not believe that to be true they should not have signed the contract.
Mayor Cramer - He even said that they had to put some sort of ownership in there so you could get the bond.
Councilperson Maul – Alright so we are not getting anywhere.
Councilperson Kenyon – It’s okay. That’s your position and we are perfectly satisfied and completely understand that position. As long as you are not willing to allow the Town to have partial ownership which is our position not 100% ownership. We never asked for 100% ownership. We want property interest in that because we feel as a town that we have invested in that. Your position is that you didn’t. Your position is it was simply capacity. We disagree and that’s why we are where we are at.
Mayor Cramer - Its not hearsay it’s a fact. And I do know that.
Councilperson Kenyon – It’s your position. We have a different position based on the contract.
Mayor Cramer – It’s an interpretation of what you are reading on the contract.
Councilperson Maul - How can you interpret the sentence that we just read you?
Mayor Cramer - Okay but you have to read the beginning of that.
Councilperson Maul - Read the whole thing if you want right now aloud.
Mayor Cramer - I don’t have it.
Councilperson Maul - You will not find anything that contradicts that statement.
Trustee Sliney – Let’s get back to the initial question that I asked. We keep talking about vested interest. We keep talking about ownership. What is your
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May 23, 2013
position? Do you want to go by this now expired contract that set the ground rules? Is that okay?
Councilperson Maul – That was our intent before the contract expired but we could not engage a conversation to make that happen.
Trustee Sliney – Are you still willing to do that?
Councilperson Maul – I believe we are.
Supervisor
Councilperson Pagano – As long as we have ownership.
Trustee Kelly – Define ownership. You have transmission lines we have transmission lines
Councilman Maul – Let me try another example of vested interest. You have probably heard the term if you are employed by somebody that has retirement or pension plan you have heard the term that after three or five years or however long you worked there you are vested in that plan. That means that if you sever from that company for whatever reason they let you go you decided to move on to another company that is yours. They don’t say well you were only vested while you were an employee. Now that you are not an employee anymore you do not own it. That’s what vested means. It means you own it. And that’s what we expect it to mean in this contract as well. And it is corroborated by the statement that David and I have both read to you. It’s as clear as words can be.
Trustee Sliney - Who would run the plant?
Trustee Kelly – The way the contract read we would run it.
Mayor Cramer – But the contract is expired so therefore that is all null and void so you would have to have a new one.
Trustee Sliney – The point I am making is if we are going to
have a good discussion about this and I think the residents of the Town of
Mayor Cramer – We still do. We just don’t meet.
Trustee Sliney - I think part of this problem in my view is we are talking in generalities. If you want to have a vested interest i.e. ownership I think we need to get down to the point of what do you want? Are you satisfied with the way this was written? I mean that calculation is easy David. Then it would eventually get up no worst than 50/50.
Councilperson Maul – My position is we weren’t trying to ask for more than what we agreed to. We were just trying to ask for what we agreed to.
Trustee Kelly – You did ask for more.
Councilperson Maul – When did we ask for more?
Trustee Kelly – In the paperwork you asked for 50%.
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May 23, 2013
Councilperson Maul – It was my understanding that we were at 50%. So if that’s in error then as I said earlier tonight whatever the number is that’s what I want. If it’s 30 if its 35 if its 50 whatever the number is but I don’t expect more than 50 because that was the agreement we have been working under the whole time since 1989.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly - If the sewer units are available. Not after we put it in the agreement the way it is now. Nobody ever denied you capacity and no one ever would. The unfortunate part was you never reached capacity.
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – It was my interpretation that was one of the questions with all the growth that was coming would you even come to that 2/3 capacity. We can’t even see where you would go beyond that. So that’s not even going to be an issue the capacity. As you are putting units in then that is how we do it. And according to the Village sewer rent when it comes to that part of it it stipulates that the joint board meetings of representatives of both the Town and the Village will determine what the rates are going to be for increases. So you are having a participation in that.
Councilperson Maul – I need a clearer answer from you because then every time I have brought up the contract before you have been clear that contract doesn’t exist anymore. So does it or not? Can we go by the contract terms or can’t we?
Mayor Cramer – To me right now the 20 years up is done. In December it was done.
Councilperson Maul – You just used the contract as a means of assuring me us that we would still operate under the same terms.
Mayor Cramer – No because we said in the interim that we would still provide you with the same capacity. We would still provide the service you’d still pay it we would still do the operations and maintenance.
Councilperson Maul – That was the sticking point that proposal you demanded that we withdraw our claim. We can’t do that. We spent $2.5 million of the town
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May 23, 2013
taxpayer’s money and we are not going to just say oh well they are not going to get anything for it.
Mayor Cramer – What happens like with Wayne County Water & Sewer Authority? We are spending a lot of money towards them. So should I own part of them?
Councilperson Maul – Do you have a contract that says you are a part owner? No. Do you have a contract with us that is saying we are a part owner? Yes. That’s the difference.
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer - We buy water.
Trustee Sliney - On a wholesale level.
Supervisor
Councilperson Kenyon - You are a customer.
Mayor Cramer - We don’t have any choice when they are going to …
Councilperson Kenyon - You are a customer.
Councilperson Maul – Exactly and that’s the position we don’t want to be in.
Councilperson McEwen – We paid $2.5 million. Matter a fact I’m a taxpayer outside the sewer districts. I paid for that plant and I have virtually no benefit.
Trustee Kelly – Let’s just say can we go back to the question how do we move forward?
Mayor Cramer – That makes a good point do you contract with Walworth? Walworth sewer?
Supervisor
Mayor Crammer – So do you have ownership with them?
Supervisor
Councilperson McEwen - We did not invest in their plant with a bond.
Councilperson Kenyon - We are a customer because we have no investment in their facilities.
Trustee Kelly – In their contract and all that it states that anything that you done on your side you would pay for and so forth and so on. It kind of basically says what ours says also. Because in this contract we say basically the same thing if your are doing something with your transmission lines and we are doing something with our transmission lines it’s on us. That’s really where we are at. We did have a contract it says ownership. To me it was very poor wording or it shouldn’t have been an intermunicipal agreement that expired.
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May 23, 2013
Councilperson Kenyon – You have to under the position the board had at the time by virtue of comptroller decision and bond attorney decision was that we had to..
Trustee Kelly – Could I see that letter?
Councilperson Kenyon – You have it right?
Trustee Kelly – I don’t have it. I’ve never seen it.
Mayor Cramer – How about you read it so the public understands.
Councilman Maul – I can do that. Which letter do you want to hear? There were a few letters from the bond council, letter from Mr. Sapienza to the State Comptroller and a response from the Comptroller. Which one would you like to hear.
Mayor Cramer – All of them then.
Councilman Maul – The first one is from the Mr. Galloway Bond Council to Maury Strobridge Attorney dated September 15, 1972.
“You have informed us
that the Village of Macedon presently owns sewage treatment plant facilities
situated on a parcel of real property owned by said Village, said parcel being
located outside of the Village boundaries but within the boundaries of the Town
of Macedon.
The present capacity
of the plant is sufficient for the Village’s needs, both present and those
projected for the foreseeable future.
The Town of
In our opinion such an
arrangement may be achieved pursuant to Article 5-G of the General Municipal
Law.
The Town and Village
would enter into a municipal cooperation agreement whereby the two entities
would agree to provide sewage treatment facilities to both the Village and the
Town on a joint basis. As part of the
agreement the Village must agree to convey an undivided real property
interest in the treatment facilities to the Town in consideration of which
the Town would agree to finance the expansion of such facilities.
This opinion has been
written pursuant to your telephone request of September 14, 1972.”
Mayor Cramer – Now I need clarification because what expansion was that? Do you remember? The one that you had done would have been 89-90.
Supervisor
Councilman Maul – Read the 1/9/1973 letter from Village Attorney Jim Sapienza to the State Comptroller:
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May 23, 2013
“Re:
Please be advised that
I am the village attorney for the
The
The Town of
It is proposed by bond
counsel that the town could finance the expansion of the plant if they would
enter into an intermunicipal contract with the village concerning the operation
of the treatment plant site and main trunk sewer line. This is predicated upon the
I enclose herewith a
copy of the letter received by the Town of
Specifically I would
respectfully request your opinion as to the following:
Very truly yours,
James L. Sapienza”
and the 1/16/1973 response to Mr. Sapienza for the State Comptroller:
“Re:
Dear Sir:
This is in reply to
your letter of January 9, 1973, concerning an expansion of the village
treatment plant by the Town of
It appears that the
Town of Macedon is contemplating the issuance of bonds to finance the cost of
the sewer plant expansion work and that its bond counsel has suggested that,
before the town issues bonds for such work, it should have an undivided
ownership interest in the treatment plant facilities.
Please be advised that
it is the opinion of this Department that the Village of Macedon could,
pursuant to Article 5-G of the General Municipal Law, if it were so disposed,
enter into an agreement with the Town of Macedon whereby the town would expand
the village sewage treatment plant and the village would grant to the town an
interest in the sewage treatment facilities.
This Department, of course, cannot pass on the desirability of such
arrangement, since such a decision must rest with the village board of
trustees.
This Department is
also of the opinion that, if the village should transfer an interest to the
town, pursuant to an Article 5-G agreement, such action would not be subject to
either a public hearing or referendum requirements. However, if such an agreement is entered
into, it might be expedient for the village to include therein provisions
setting forth the exact interest that the town is to have, in the event that
the facilities or a portion of them is later sold or acquired through
condemnation or appropriation. Under
such an agreement, serious difficulties might arise in the event that a portion
of the real property, on which the facilities
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May 23, 2013
are located, is sold or condemned, where the
physical improvements are not taken or affected by such conveyance or taking.
A type of situation
that we have in mind is where a strip of land might be appropriated by the
State for highway purposes. Without any
agreement to the contrary, it would appear that the town might be entitled to
share in the award solely because of its undivided real property interest in
the facilities.
We trust that the above
will be of assistance to you.
Very truly yours,
Arthur Levitt
State Comptroller”
Trustee Kelly – Where is the documentation of what part of interest you have in it? I guess that’s where I’m at. We have a building down there and nobody defined the interest. I think if anything if we are going through a new contract that’s what needs to be defined. I didn’t understand when the papers were drawn up while you were demanding documentation. My thing was how did you get the bond without document. Do you have documentation with your bond papers? In other words through what the interest you have in it. I think that has been overlooked. You asked us for documentation of what you had and I don’t have a clue but you should because when you went for the bond there ought to be something in the bond papers that has the interest that you were to make. Is that not true or am I out of line.
Councilperson Maul – I think your comment is probably correct and I think it’s also true we don’t have such a document. I think that is part of the urgency that in June when we started to approached the Mayor saying look this contract is about to expire we want the documentation explaining what our ownership percentage is.
Trustee Kelly – Apparently nobody has it.
Councilperson Maul – It would be a document that would be easy for you to generate and give to us because you at the time were the owner of record. We wanted to make sure that our rights were preserved under this contract showing that we were also part owners.
Trustee Kelly – Well that’s what we need to discuss.
Councilperson Maul – That’s what we wanted to discuss.
Trustee Kelly – That’s not what it said.
Councilperson Maul – No I’m talking about originally Dave. We ended up where we ended up because we couldn’t get a conversation. Our original conversation was we need to sit down and talk about this and formalize the agreement in terms of whatever the legal document is saying you are an x percent owner. And we couldn’t engage the conversation. That’s why we ended up where we are. We didn’t start with a notice of claim. We started with requests for a meeting. And we didn’t get a meeting.
Trustee Kelly – It just went on kind of randomly.
Councilperson Maul – But the contract ended in December. We didn’t have a lot of time to dance around this. We asked we got no answer. We got the feeling that there was no interest in discussion. We had to do what we had to do to protect our rights.
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May 23, 2013
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – No the reason why we had the money.
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – Because I had been Mayor at that point. So when we were talking about all this stuff. We happened to say in September we already have the money allocated why don’t we just pay it off and be done with it.
Trustee Kelly – They aren’t paying a whole lot of interest now.
Mayor Cramer – Send it over to Kim and have her pay it off. Kim said no we were going to wait until December when we are going to pay it all off.
Councilperson Maul – Fair enough if that was your motivation but you have to understand out perspective with the constant overtures for discussion that wouldn’t happen and then that happened. It all just kind of played together as Bill said throw up a red flag. If that’s not you intention then our bad. We made a mistake. But in the context of the kinds of relationship that was developing between your board and ours it wasn’t a good sign to us. At least that’s my opinion. It fit in with the we don’t want to play.
Councilperson McEwen – Particularly when the contract said once the bond is paid off then the contract is over.
Mayor Cramer – But you should have called too at that time.
Councilperson Kenyon – We did
Mayor Cramer – You guys can laugh but you have no idea how many times did they try to have that conversation.
Councilperson McEwen – How many times should we call?
Mayor Cramer – No you didn’t call there were e-mails.
Councilperson Maul – E-mails and visited your meetings twice.
Mayor Cramer – Yep and I didn’t say that about the sewer. The sewer what I had said at that point we would look into it because at the time the attorney was looking at the ambulance contract because you had presented one a month earlier. And so I said he was still looking at it and making some changes which you had already known that they were going to make changes because when you presented it you had said there is probably going to be some changes. And I said yes.
Supervisor
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May 23, 2013
Mayor Cramer – Exactly and when we came back later and then you said you wanted to know what the position of the ambulance was the contract. And I said we had looked into it and the attorney had it and it was fine. And at that time you started talking about the sewer.
Councilperson Maul – It was fine in June, it’s not fine as we get into September October.
Mayor Cramer – It wasn’t June. It was July and August. July I had the first contact.
Supervisor
Councilperson Maul – So anyway Dave you are making the point that you would like to move forward to see if there is a way to resolve this. Me too, I think we all feel that way.
Trustee Kelly – I would like to know where we are talking vested interest. Are we talking clarifiers are we talking equipment inside the building what are we talking. We certainly can’t be talking about property because we have our DPW on the property. We have a building on there.
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – We also cooperated too. For the taxpayers it was cheaper. In the long run it was going to be cheaper.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly - Everything we do should be a benefit to the
Town of
NO. 14 Page 17
May 23, 2013
Councilperson Maul – When that became apparent toward the end of its term that’s when we said we had to formalize it.
Trustee Kelly – If you think you needed a long time to do the sewer use law we definitely need some time to work out the agreement that’s when we offered you the temporary agreement because Bill said he couldn’t pay us without an agreement.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – You could have come back to us. We had that discussion it can’t hurt to put it in there that’s all they can do is object to it.
Councilperson Maul – Our attorney talked to your attorney. Our attorney and your attorney can communicate very clearly what our objections were. Whether or not that was shared with you or not I have no idea. Our objection was very clear that we were not going to do anything that required us to withdraw our claim.
Councilperson Pagano – Of ownership
Trustee Kelly - Like I say that’s what we need to define ownership
Mayor Cramer – I am fact based. When we are making big decisions like this I need the facts. I’m wondering do we come back and obviously we have to discuss this more that one meeting. We have to.
Councilperson Maul – The one meeting was do we even have a basis to go on. If your position was you are not going to own anything then there is no reason for another meeting.
Mayor Cramer – I guess what I would like to entertain is to have at the next meeting Mr. Sapienza come so that we both boards understand. You may have questions that we may not be thinking of.
Councilperson Maul – You can do that but it won’t change my mind.
Councilperson McEwen – The documentation tells the story.
Councilperson Maul - This is right here. You signed a contract. We signed a contract. We want to go by the contract. I don’t care what any attorney from 20 years ago or from 20 days ago tells me. I know what we signed. Not me but we the Town signed and the Village signed.
Mayor Cramer – But what was their intension?
Councilperson Kenyon – But that’s okay. If you can’t come to terms with that.
Mayor Cramer – No what I am saying I would just like to get there are things you are asking that I can’t ask on some things. Neither one of us were there. I just want to be able to see what they were thinking.
Councilperson Kenyon – I was probably there. I’ve been around forever. Is the Village willing to convey ownership? Haven’t I Judy?
Mayor Cramer – I guess we have to look at both ends.
NO. 14 Page 18
May 23, 2013
Councilperson Kenyon – You can talk to Mr. Sapienza. He is a fine upstanding man. I have no doubt about his position or what he may have told you. The question goes back to what we believe we had. It is that simple.
Councilperson Maul – And having someone tell us 20 years later what we meant. I don’t care. What did you sign? You can’t resolve disputes by what I meant to say 20 years ago. You didn’t say it and we didn’t sign it. So you can bring him if you want but it’s not going to change my position. I’m only speaking for one person.
Councilperson Kenyon – Again it’s a position. It may have been his position at the time. That may have been Mr. Sapienza’s position at the time.
Mayor Cramer – Or both Board’s positions at the time. Because I wasn’t there. You weren’t there.
Councilperson Maul – Neither was I
Councilperson Kenyon - Our position is there is ownership.
Councilperson Maul – I can’t imagine any reasonable person if that was their intention signing this contract because it says completely different things than what you are saying their intentions were. So either they did just general half track right what am I signing right? If you read it and you signed it then you go by it. You don’t get to come back later and say well that’s not what I meant.
Resident – You read letters but can you read the contract to us?
Councilperson Maul – It’s like 20 pages.
Councilperson Pagano – I think the thing we are looking for can the Village Trustees and the Mayor give us ownership of the sewer? If you can say yes then we can move on and have another meeting.
Councilperson Kenyon – Not all - a percentage.
Councilperson Pagano - But if they are not willing to give us a percentage of the ownership
Trustee Sliney – How many times do I have to say what do you want? We are willing to talk about it. You keep going back in history about why this happened why that happened.
Mayor Cramer – Do you want bullet points is that what you are saying?
Trustee Sliney – I think what we need to take this take the guts of it which is pretty good. Take out what is stupid leave in what is good add what we need to add and get this over with.
Councilperson Maul – That sounds great to me. That’s all we wanted from the beginning.
Trustee Sliney – I tried to say it.
Councilperson Maul – I mean from nine (9) months ago.
Trustee Sliney – So where do we go from here?
NO. 14 Page 19
May 23, 2013
Councilperson Maul – I think I’m doing too much of the talking. In my opinion this meeting was to find out whether you had any inclination to pursue us being a joint owner. If you didn’t then there wouldn’t be any need for another meeting. If you do if the majority of you do have that inclination then we have another meeting and start hammering out details.
Councilperson Kenyon – I think you made a point earlier Dave about usage. If that conveyance of ownership is based on units or usage then that may be a good vehicle to get us down the road.
Trustee Sliney – That is what this one was.
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – I don’t think we should. Isn’t that the point we are trying to save our taxpayers money. Every time we pull in our lawyers you know. When it comes down
Supervisor
Mayor Cramer – No before the signing. I am saying while we are working on the agreement that we should be able to come to terms that we are both happy and before we agree to it have our attorneys review it.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – I think that is the big sticking point right there. The part that came apart everybody works on triggers. If everybody read the contract and my whole thing the whole time was they keep saying 50%. There is no way shape or form they have ever reached 50%. And that was my whole stance on that whole thing.
Councilperson Maul – That’s fine. We are not asking for more than we are due.
Trustee Sliney - We can write in the contract we will meet every year and review the sewer units. This isn’t that hard. It really isn’t.
Trustee Kelly – It worked for 20 years in spite of us.
Mayor Cramer – What is the process Kathy right now that is in place? Is it that Kim goes once a year and she verifies it and sends it to you the sewer units?
Councilperson Pagano – You can ask Kim she is here.
Accountant Leonard – Basically if you read the contract the contract has a formula to establish enough of units commercial industrial and residential. So what I submit to Kathy water usage exactly the formulas and how much each person is assessed for billing. It is very clear cut that the units are in proportion of ownership everything. Plus the users pay you and then they have to pay us over and above because they have to pay for the pump stations electric man time. We have extra expenses. Ours is $400/year and yours is $252 so there is a big different in aspects in who was controlling the plant. Basically I was there 30 years ago. The whole idea was percentages would go with the number of units not that the board wanted 50% it just would keep going how ever fast the Town
NO. 14 Page 20
May 23, 2013
grew and not go above 50%. I think right now we are going to be at 31%/70%. I’m not sure. It’s not 50/50. I don’t think it was ever assumed to be 50/50.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – My hope would be that it starts growing and we all prosper from it and get the sewer plant recreated the way it needs to be off our customer base. I asked you what plans you had at the time and apparently there wasn’t any at the time. The more customer base you have the happier
Councilperson Kenyon – The other piece of it is the idea of the sewer use law. One of the reasons we would along with what Bill was talking about it could be incorporated in the agreement. One of the things that Dave Kelly mentioned earlier is the sewer use law.
Trustee Kelly - I think we would have to have it directly implemented at the
agreement time. It didn’t happen after
that. It did cost us.
Councilperson Kenyon - That would be the advantage of having the attorneys doing it because they could incorporate the uniform code into the agreement that would affect both the Village and the Town. It’s a Village/Town agreement and that way we resolve the code issue and the agreement issue all at the same time rather than have to go back and do it after the fact. That is just a suggestion.
Mayor Cramer – Our calculations are based on the DEC calculations and that’s how we got the formula. Our sewer use law is off that too.
Supervisor
Trustee Kelly – Actually theirs is pretty standard. The only difference actually between theirs and ours was there was no talk about ownership. The agreement is pretty standard. We are not that far off. We can actually probably use theirs. That one apparently got adopted. I don’t know why ours never got adopted by the Town.
Supervisor
Trustee Sliney – I’m thinking about what the next step is and how we could rewrite this. A major step in the agreement which is very loosely covered is governance. We have to decide how that plant is going to run. That I think we can resolve also.
Supervisor
Trustee Sliney – We can’t vote because we are not in session right now.
Supervisor
NO. 14 Page 21
May 23, 2013
else have any comments before we kind of dismiss and take a break before the board comes back into regular session.
Mayor Cramer – Are we going to talk about fire for just a little bit.
Supervisor
Councilperson Maul – Can you do it in 5 minutes Marie?
Mayor Cramer – I think so if not we will have to set up at time because it’s affecting us.
Councilperson Maul – Why don’t you start with your position of how what we did affects you?
Mayor Cramer - First of all I didn’t know anything until I
just happened yesterday to see in your minutes the actual contract of the fire
contract. I had e-mailed the Supervisor
when I found out that you had agreed and signed it as a board here on the 25th
before
Councilperson Maul – You are not. It’s a contract with
Mayor Cramer – I know but how is it going to affect us.
Councilperson Maul – It’s not.
Mayor Cramer – Really?
Councilperson Maul - Why would a contract with Party B affect Party A?
Mayor Cramer - Because I have not idea. You haven’t talked.
Councilperson Maul – First of all it is the same contract I
believe you had a copy of it before the public hearing that was here that night
where we had the place full of people yelling at us. Remember that one? It was the same contract. We didn’t change a word. The difference was the public hearing had
attached to it that that would be instead of the singing an agreement with the
Village. We made it very clear when we
went ahead of signed this with the Macedon Center Fire Department that it did
not mean the severance of the relationship with the Village. That’s the part that we changed. But the
agreement with
Mayor Cramer – But the one in your minutes there are
actually some different things added than the original. The fees are the same number 7 was added the
first annual payment was added. So I am
trying to see which one is the one. Was
this even different from the one
Councilperson Maul – I would have to see it and compare it with yours. It is my understanding it is the same one. But again this doesn’t affect you. It’s that simple. It’s not a contract with you. It’s a contract with them. And it falls along the spirit of alternative 1 where we all walked away as Dave said singing kumbaya that night saying gee wouldn’t it be great to have some extra coverage perhaps someday having a facility down on the west end of town. As Dave said we all sang kumbaya. We sent you a letter saying we believe our
NO. 14 Page 22
May 23, 2013
agreement in principal was that we were all around alternative 1 would you like us to make a draft to comment on and again we got crickets.
Mayor Cramer – That is not true, now stop. Supervisor
Councilperson Maul – We decided on a contract with
Mayor Cramer - Alternative 1 was part of
Councilperson Maul – We haven’t made that decision. We haven’t made any decision like that without engaging you. We haven’t decided to build anything.
Mayor Cramer - To be fair you guys have had the discussion. You understand your plan. We don’t. We don’t know anything that is going on.
Councilperson Kenyon – You guys are going to have a contract with the Town.
Mayor Cramer – Thank you but that is the first I have heard of it.
Councilpersons Maul, Kenyon & McEwen – No it’s not.
Councilperson McEwen – We even put it in the public notice.
Councilperson Maul – We can find the paper where it says in
the ad that we have every intension of signing an agreement with the
Trustee Kelly – I think it’s in your minutes too.
Mayor Cramer – Did you call me to say this is what we are thinking?
Councilperson Maul – You got a letter which you just agreed saying our joint intention was to go along with something like alternative 1. Would you like us to make a draft that you could comment on and your only answer was I’ll get back to you?
Mayor Cramer – We did not know because we had not seen the
Councilperson Maul - Yes you had. It was the subject of public hearing weeks before that that you attended.
Mayor Cramer – I did not know. We did not know until I saw that contract in my hand.
NO. 14 Page 23
May 23, 2013
Councilperson Kenyon – What does that contract have to do with the contract with Macedon?
Mayor Cramer – Because I didn’t know if you drafted another type of contract and that you included something different. Dave how would I know? How would I know?
Councilperson McEwen - What difference does it make? We are going to sign a contract with the Village Fire Department.
Mayor Cramer - You could have added additional things that could have affected us. We had no idea.
Councilperson Maul – We could not have done anything that
affected you unless you were a signatory.
And you weren’t. The contract is
between
Councilperson Kenyon - We can’t do anything to affect you.
Mayor Cramer – I did not know that.
Councilperson Pagano – Marie, you can’t control the Town. You may try to control your Village Trustees but you can’t control the Town because that is what you are trying to do right now. You are trying to control our signatures. You have nothing to do with our Macedon Center Fire Department and our contract. And it is true that we didn’t hear from you. You always say let’s wait let’s wait let’s wait. You are always too busy.
Mayor Cramer – No I’m not.
Councilperson Pagano - Really? Okay
Mayor Cramer - What I am trying to say is what I did not know in the new contract if it had something that affected us.
Councilperson Pagano - It doesn’t.
Mayor Cramer - Now I know.
Councilperson Pagano - We have the intent of signing with the Village.
Councilperson Kenyon - You could have found that out with a phone call.
Councilperson Maul - It never could. I can’t sign a contract with Bill that affects something about Paul’s life. I can’t do that and we can’t do that about you either. The only thing affects you is the contract that ultimately you sign with us for 2014. That’s the only thing that will affect the Village and that contract doesn’t exist yet.
Councilperson Kenyon - Your attorney could have told you that.
Councilperson Pagano - And you could have picked up the phone.
Mayor Cramer – I e-mailed.
Councilperson Pagano – You could have picked up the phone. That’s what you just said. You can spin it any way you want. That’s the bottom line.
NO. 14 Page 24
May 23, 2013
Councilperson Maul – I am glad that there was the groundwork that we can get together and perhaps solve this sewer thing without it going any further in litigation. It wasn’t something we wanted to do either. It was a position of last resort as far as I am concerned. I’m glad that cooler heads are prevailing.
At 9:00 p.m. the Town Board went on break prior to beginning their regularly scheduled meeting.
The Town Attorney entered the board meeting.
RESOLUTION
NO. 128 (13) APPROVAL
OF MINUTES
RESOLVED the Board approves the minutes of May 9, 2013 as presented.
MOTION BY MAUL, SECONDED BY PAGANO
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
REPORTS – Supervisor
Historian April Report
Police April Report
RESOLUTION NO. 129 (12) APPROVAL OF REPORTS
RESOLVED the Board approves the reports as submitted.
MOTION BY
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
Lawn Care Bids – Town Hall &
|
TruGreen |
$720 (3 treatments) |
|
Country Green Lawn Care |
$1300 (5 treatments) |
|
Weed Man |
$1540 (3 treatments) |
RESOLUTION NO. 130
(12) TOWN COMPLEX LAWN CARE
RESOLVED the Town Board approves the contract with TruGreen
as the lowest responsible bidder in the amount of $720 for the
MOTION BY MAUL, SECONDED BY MCEWEN
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
RESOLUTION NO. 131 (12) SUMMER RECREATION APPOINTMENTS
RESOLVED the Town Board appoint the following individuals to the Summer Recreation Program as recommended by the Recreation Director:
Tennis
Marie Black $15.00/hr.
Assistant to be named (if needed) $11.00/hr.
Rec Camp
Christine Grier, Director $16.50/hr.
Jennifer Copp, Assistant Director $13.00/hr.
Courtney Cobb $ 9.25/hr.
Andrea Colucci, Arts & Crafts Director $11.00/hr.
Cameron Hood $ 9.50/hr.
Brian Vogan $ 9.50/hr.
Kaleigh Vogan $10.50/hr.
Ruth Brown $ 9.00/hr.
Cody Rogers $ 9.25/hr.
NO. 14 Page 25
May 23, 2013
Two (2) assistants to be named later, at minimum wage, if needed because of increased enrollment.
MOTION BY MAUL, SECONDED BY MCEWEN
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
RESOLUTION
NO. 132 (13) INTEGRATED
SYSTEMS – IT SERVICE AGREEMENT
RESOLVED the Town Board approves the contract with Integrated Systems Contract D in the amount of $7,500.
MOTION BY PAGANO, SECONDED BY MCEWEN
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
RESOLUTION
NO. 133 (13) POLICE
APPOINTMENT – D’AMATO
BE IT RESOLVED that Thomas G. D’Amato be appointed to the position of Probationary Full-Time Police Officer with the Town of Macedon Police Department at the rate of $19.13 per hour, from the attached Wayne County Civil Service Certification of Eligible effective May 24, 2013. The appointment is to fill an existing vacancy.
MOTION BY MAUL, SECONDED BY KENYON
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
RESOLUTION
ON. 134 (13) POLICE
APPOINTMENT - DEMCHUK
BE IT RESOLVED that David Demchuk be appointed to the position of Probationary Full-Time Police Officer with the Town of Macedon Police Department at the rate of $19.13 per hour, from the attached Wayne County Civil Service Certification of Eligible effective May 24, 2013. The appointment is to fill an existing vacancy.
MOTION BY KENYON, SECONDED BY MCEWEN
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
It was the consensus of the Board to establish the town office summer hours beginning June 3 through August 31. The offices will be open Monday through Thursday from 8 AM – 5 PM and will resume regular hours September 3, 2013.
RESOLUTION
NO. 135 (13) EXECUTIVE
SESSION
RESOLVED the Town Board enter Executive Session at 9:35 p.m. to discuss a particular personnel matter.
MOTION BY
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
RESOLUTION
NO. 136 (13) OPEN
SESSION
RESOLVED the Town Board return to Open Session at 9:55 p.m.
MOTION BY
ROLL CALL VOTE: KENYON AYE, MAUL AYE, MCEWEN AYE,
PAGANO AYE,
MOTION BY
__________________________
Judy W. Gravino
Macedon Town Clerk